Beyond the Game: The Fight for Safer Football and Accountability

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Travis
Hey there, I'm Travis Patterson, and welcome to Driving Change. Here to find unfiltered insights and hard hitting questions that challenge the status quo in law and in life. As a personal injury attorney in Fort Worth, Texas, I've seen firsthand how challenges like distracted driving, family safety issues impact our community. But I refuse to accept these problems as inevitable.
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Travis
In this podcast, we'll dig deep into real world problems, bringing you practical solutions from my experiences in law, parenting, and entrepreneurship. I'm not here to preach. Here to start conversations that make you think differently and provide actual advice that you can use right away. Welcome to Driving Change. Let's get to it. All right. Let's drive again. I'm super excited.
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Travis
Today.
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Travis
First intersection of America again.
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Travis
Not to or not, but, here he is. Vinny. Sicily. Ladies and gentlemen, Vinny, thanks for coming on the podcast.
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Vinny
Travis, thanks for having me, man. Great to see you again. Good. Good hearing that. I was a mentor. I think we're more of, you know, colleagues and. Yeah, maybe surpass me in your successful time and all your endeavors. It's great to be here. I really.
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Travis
Appreciate it. I don't know about that, but, Yeah. So, Vinny, by way of introduction, Vinny is a lawyer here in town and Fort Worth. He's a partner at De Guzman. Certainly. Correct. One of that firm. Get started.
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Vinny
We got we merged our two firms about, three years ago.
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Travis
Oh, so it was a merger of really? Well, okay. Got it. Grew up in Aledo, Texas. Or you one of the state champions?
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Vinny
Was. Yeah, I was part of the first state championship team that Aledo got back in 1998. So it was a different world back. Aledo football was. You just signed up for it. I was able to just watch.
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Travis
Everybody play it. And you won the state championship.
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Vinny
Won the state championship. Yeah that's correct. You could have worn.
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Travis
Like your leather jacket or something.
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Vinny
I still have it. I still have the leather jacket. My wife wears it sometimes. Okay. Incoming games.
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Travis
Okay. Well that's great. If anyone's TCU undergrad, SMU law school now practices commercial litigation. Doesn't just do football helmet stuff. We're I was going to talk about that today, but, does have an emphasis on federal civil trials for people who aren't lawyers. That's the stuff that the fancy smart lawyers work on is the federal court stuff.
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Travis
I spend most of my time over in state court. As you know, Vinnie's actually represented, I mean, before. Do you remember that?
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Vinny
Yeah, I do, it was a good it was a class action, actually, in federal court. We had a good, good out. Yeah.
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Travis
We look at. Yeah, yeah. There was a guy out there he made a fake law firm with, had our names and faces on there, and was pretending to be us and stealing clients, and, Vinny shut that down for us. But anyway, I digress, which I might do a lot today. Vinnie. But the reason Vinnie is here today is because Vinnie was also a lawyer for the largest group of former NCAA football players suing the NCAA in a federal multidistrict litigation lawsuit.
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Travis
Which is still pending, and.
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Vinny
That one is still pending in Chicago.
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Travis
Okay. Have you all have you sued anyone else besides the NCAA?
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Vinny
Yes, we've had we've also sued, the helmet manufacturer. Riddell, biggest helmet manufacturer in the world. Football helmets. Biggest market share. We had a very large federal. It wasn't an MDL, but it was a federal case. With with right now. We ended up settling the case, for, for our players. It was over 100 guys.
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Vinny
Former that one was more focused on former high school football players who wore Ryedale okay in a certain time period. And it was really, you know, the case was about did Riddell have a negligent design of their helmets that could have done more to prevent the head injuries that, you know, the traumatic brain injuries that our clients were suffering from?
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Travis
Yeah. So let's stop there. So when you have a products case, you know, if you can show that there was some other design that was available that they could have done and they went with a lesser design, is that was that part of your.
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Vinny
Those were the allegations? Yeah. Those are the allegations in that case that there was alternative designs that were out there. And it was interesting. And I, I do think, you know, we were adverse obviously in that case. But but Ryedale has really, I think improved the design of the helmets. And you'll see when you're watching games now if you're watching a college game you'll see the helmets look different right from player to player.
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Vinny
And you'll see these some helmets that you'll see kind of have almost like a it looks like a flap on top. It's not, you know, the cap that the people are wearing now too, but has a flap on top that's supposed to help redirect some of the energy away from the brain.
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Travis
So is that, so, like, I have little kids who ride bikes in all the mountain bikes now and, like, ski, the mountain bike helmets and, like, even the ski helmets, they all have, like, MIPs protection. Are you familiar with the MIPs technology? Yes, I have seen that. Yeah. Is that what they're putting in football helmets now?
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Vinny
It's a little different in that the ski helmets are more would be more similar. But, the football helmet has to be designed in a way that can take more than one hit. And you'll see, like, you may see a warning sign on your bike helmet says one crash. You need to throw this away, right? Because it's going to take the impact it's going to have.
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Vinny
You know, parts of the helmet are going to actually break and no longer be usable. Yes. So the football helmet has to be used again. And it just by nature of the game, you can't throw your football helmet away. Every, every hit. And in fact, you know, some certain positions like offensive linemen, defensive linemen, they're having multiple impacts every play right there.
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Vinny
Crashed into the line, crashed into each other over and over again. So that's sort of what, you know, the the helmet designs have, have really focused on and gone towards. And if I can put a, little bit of a pitch in for why it's important wire lawyers important, why are lawsuits important? You know, a lot of people say, oh, too many lawsuits to me, these things.
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Vinny
Right. But litigation really helps regulate large industries better than a federal regulation or a state regulation. If you can have cases that push companies to change designs to do different things. And I think we're seeing that not just in, you know, the helmet, but also in like the NCAA cases and the NFL lawsuits about concussions. They made changes.
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Vinny
Those organizations made changes that I think were the result of litigation. Yeah, because they wanted to stop. You know, I think they had a true interest in stopping injuries, but they also had kind of a fire lit to we need to make these changes so that we can show we're doing something.
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Travis
I mean, yeah, I mean in a, in a lawsuit, we get to take discovery for years typically depositions, get the documents, find out where everything is is hidden. And lawmakers don't always have the chance to do that. I'm, I'm sure you got some interesting discovery in those cases.
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Vinny
Yeah, we saw and I can share the things that have been public, but in the NCAA cases in particular, there were, you know, the NCAA did do studies going back in the 60s, 70s, 80s about what's going on with these, what these players, what's the what are the rules, you know, how can we do things to protect, these head injuries and our allegations are nothing was done for a long time, right.
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Vinny
And just, you know, going back, even just focusing back on the NCAA, that's the that's the voluntary governing body of of, you know, college sports. So all the colleges that have sports programs, they almost all of them, go through the NCAA for their regulations. Right. And the NCAA sets the rules. The players have to sign a contract that says they're going to follow the rules.
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Vinny
And it has been that way, since the NCAA was formed. And really, one thing that we that I learned as we started getting into these cases with the NCAA, they were actually formed over 100 years ago. Teddy Roosevelt was president. He loved football. He was a football player.
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Travis
Like literally like 1900s, like early 1900.
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Vinny
1914 or something like that. Yeah, over a hundred years ago. And there was a rash of players who were dying on the field. These were the old like either no helmets or leather helmets. These and, and Teddy Roosevelt, you know, called all the university presidents together who had football programs and said, I love football. I want it to keep going.
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Vinny
There's going to be an outcry about this. We have people dying on the field. What can we do? Right. So really, the NCAA was founded with the purpose of protecting football players, but not just, you know, any injury. It was really focused on head injuries. And so they tried to, you know, they implemented rules about leading with the head and what you could do back then.
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Vinny
And they've made changes over time. But I think, you know, a lot of people have seen big changes in the last ten years in the wake of, of this concussion litigation. Yeah. Not just stars, but in the NFL and so that's why you'll see, you know, rule changes where the kickoffs look different, you know, or where there's, you know.
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Travis
And we'll talk about what's going on today. But like, yeah, you know, I don't think anyone listening to the podcast is going to be like, oh, Vinnie and Travis just talked me for the first time that football is dangerous and that my kid like a concussion. Like it seems like now it's pretty ubiquitous. People understand that. And so one of the things I want to do today is just kind of truly educate parents on what the risks exactly are and the signs and things to look for, and then what we can do as parents to mitigate the risk.
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Travis
Yeah. I think that's really important. But yeah, the fact that the NCAA was literally founded to deal with head trauma from the jump, like the entire NCAA, a, 100 years ago. It's pretty crazy. And the fact that it took so long to kind of really attack this, I mean, I understand the counterargument, I guess, is like, you don't want to completely watered down the game.
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Travis
But there's obviously a middle ground, and it seems like we're heading to a more balanced place now than we have been.
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Vinny
And I think as the I think as, as people understand the risks more as the coaches kind of embrace it a little bit more as the referees understand it. And something that's happened recently, you know, at the even at the middle school and high school level in Texas now there has to be a concussion protocol committee in each district.
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Vinny
And that's got to have at least a physician on it. You know, you've got to have nine coaches on the committee, and they come up with a plan of, here's what we need to do to watch out for these things. Here's the plan. If someone if we think someone has suffered even a any kind of brain injury, here's what the rules are going to be before they can come back in.
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Vinny
Yeah. So yeah, we can definitely talk about those. But there are resources for parents, resources for coaches, resources for, you know, just fans because I think we're football fans. You know for sure. Ball. We don't want to see it go away. We want to see it preserved. Absolutely. And you know, there's that question that everybody I know we've we've talked about this before for our own kids.
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Vinny
We have sons. Are we going to let them play tackle football. Right. What's the word on that? I, I grew up playing football. Loved it at met some of my best friends playing football. But I know guys who are now suffering from brain injuries.
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Travis
As you guys, you played with.
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Vinny
Guys that I played with.
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Travis
Right? I think we all know football players who are dealing with these. Yeah problems.
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Vinny
And so yeah, what do you do do you, do you let your son, do you let your son play? And if you do, when, when do you start?
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Travis
Well, I'm gonna make you answer to that question at some point today. Yeah. Because I think a lot of parents want to know your thoughts on. Because you've been in the throes of this stuff. For what? Yeah. Seven, eight years now.
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Vinny
Yeah. Seven years.
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Travis
So, you know, you know, this stuff a lot better than most. Okay, so let's talk about the dangers. Right? So concussion, people hear that word and I don't know if everybody really understands what a concussion is. But it's not just concussions, right? It's just every hit to the head that's not diagnosed as a concussion but still has an impact.
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Travis
Correct. So let's talk about that.
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Vinny
And so concussion is a everyone knows the word. But there's there's a lot of disagreement on what level of injury constitutes a concussion. We used to call it like getting your bell rung right. No. Just having that getting dizzy.
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Travis
Yeah.
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Vinny
That you know, modern neurologists and neuroscientists say that as a concussion, getting your bell rung as a concussion. I think technically a concussion is any brain injury that that stops normal function as a result of the brain rattling or twisting inside the skull.
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Travis
Even just temporarily.
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Vinny
Even temporarily. You don't have to get blacked out. You don't have to get knocked out, a concussion. You know, most concussions don't result in a blackout, right? It just results in the loss of the normal functioning of some part of your body. As a result of that rattling or twisting of the brain. So there's a lot people suffer a lot more concussions than they than I think they realize.
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Vinny
But there is definitely a concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury. So you hear like the the TBI is the acronym. Right. And there's all kinds of different levels of TBI.
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Travis
But mild moderate sphere.
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Vinny
Exactly. Yep. And so, you know, there will be initial symptoms that, that hit, like you said, dizziness, vomiting, inability to focus. You know, loss of consciousness obviously would be would be one of them, loss of certain motor skills just temporarily. You see the guys get up and they're wobbling.
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Travis
Yeah. Look at look at tours. This year.
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Vinny
Yeah. Exactly. Multiple times. And that's a we can talk about that. We made all these rule changes. But then you'll still see guys go back in that you know should not be going back in. And people kind of turn a blind eye or you'll see an obvious, you know, receiver gets blasted and it's obviously a targeting. You know that we're guys hitting helmet to helmet and the refs will say, oh no, I wasn't talking to you after all, because it's some important playoff game.
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Vinny
So, right. That cultural change is still still kind of slow too because.
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Travis
Had a shot at the Texas Longhorns, by the.
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Vinny
Way. Yeah, I'll just say I.
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Travis
Think that was very thinly veiled.
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Vinny
It was. Yeah. That was a it was a good game. It was an entertaining game. But yeah, somehow they, they waved off the targeting there at the fourth quarter.
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Travis
You're right. The stuff it's not always enforced. The same across the board. Yeah. Okay. So you have concussion protocols. Obviously we see that now in place. In the NFL. I didn't realize that Texas is actually kind of out front on this ish unit. Yeah, Texas looks like we have been for about 10 or 11.
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Vinny
Yeah. Really? In 2011, ten, 11. Yeah. Started making changes through the legislature. And they've made changes pretty much every legislative session to tweak, which I really appreciate it like, and.
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Travis
To improve.
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Vinny
To improve and to improve player safety and to improve access. So in I would say a Texas is is at the forefront. We have the most football players in the country, a high school football players in the country. And so and people want to see it preserved, even, you know, people who, who like the rough and tumble aspect of the game still want the game to be here for their kids in five, ten, 20 years, whatever.
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Vinny
Right. So Texas made legislative changes about what each school district needs to have in place concussion protocols, physicians. And then if if a player does get a concussion, they need to get now, a, a sign off from a neutral third party doctor who says this person can return to play. They've got to go.
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Travis
Got not a coach.
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Vinny
Not a coach. And in fact, the on the on the sidelines. There has to be a non coach who who actually makes a decision on a player coming in or out. And I think that helps the coaches because there's a lot of pressure on coaches to put their best kid back in, get them back out there you know if you can.
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Vinny
So so the goal there is take that pressure away from the coaches, put it into a neutral, kind of an advocate for the kids. Then thing I'd say about Texas, Texas has a parental bill of rights where parents have rights, in in any public school, charter school. I don't think that regulates the private schools, but that's a different, different issue.
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Vinny
But in any public school, there's a parental bill of rights, which I'd encourage anybody to go look up. You have the right to intervene for your kid's safety. In a football game, you have the right to override even the coach until the kid needs to come out. Right. And they have to honor that. You have other.
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Vinny
There's a long list of those. Parental bill of rights in Texas is also clear that, this is this doesn't limit your rights. It's not the only things you get. But we're going to codify. We're going to put these into a law so anybody can see it. The coaches can see it, to protect.
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Travis
And that's if that's not just if the parents told the kid has concussion, that's if the parent suspects the kid may have a kid.
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Vinny
Absolutely. Yeah. And so I would give that advice to parents. Don't be afraid to speak up. You're going to be your ultimate, you know, the kid's best advocate in educating him about. Yeah. You know or her because, you know, I talk about football, but there's concussions in soccer. There's concussions in lacrosse. There's can cut everything in any sport.
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Vinny
You can have volleyball. So you have those rights as a parent, you know, for your for your kids, boys or girls.
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Travis
Yeah. And you know, that's it's a good thing for parents to know obviously. I mean, you've got to be willing to be that parent. Right to comes out the stands and says take Johnny out. Yeah, I insist, and maybe just have that conversations with your family beforehand. Like, look, tackle football is a tough decision for a family.
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Travis
Here are the rules. Our family is going to play this by. If me or your dad or whatever suspect you know, we will step up. We will be those parents. And if you can't handle that embarrassment or that ridicule or whatever that backlash might look like from your buddies, then we're not doing this. Yeah. You know, let the kid buy into that kind of decision and teach him why, right?
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Travis
Yes. For your own safety.
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Vinny
And I promise you the I've spoken with hundreds of guys who are suffering from, you know, traumatic brain injury now, likely CTE. It's worth the moment of embarrassment to pull your kid out and not to have them live a life of because the symptoms and signs are long term, and it takes a long time to manifest to, to show up.
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Travis
And, and we talked about this yesterday on our call that talk about like it the risks go up if you go back in the game and get that second concussion. Yeah.
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Vinny
Exactly. So the first concussion, the first traumatic brain injury that can be bad. It can be devastating. It can be horrible. It may not be that bad. Maybe the symptoms aren't that bad, but the science has proven that the second hit, the second concussion, the second your brain, once it's suffered that first brain injury, that first concussion, it's it's I forget the percentage.
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Vinny
It's like 250% more susceptible to an additional injury. And the injury is worse. It's kind of like you've broken an egg. Just the slightest little tap will break the rest of the shell. Right. So that second concussion, there's a there's a whole subset of, of studies about, you know, the second concussion syndrome. And that's why it's so important that players, when they have a brain injury in a game, they need to come out for that game and then get checked out by a doctor who will give them the sign off.
00:18:09:17 - 00:18:32:05
Vinny
Don't go back into the game. Don't let your kid go back into the game. If you suspect they've got a they've suffered a concussion. And that same thing is true for developing brains. You know, kids brains are are wired and padded differently than adult brains. Right. So when you talk about a kid doing youth tackle football, you know, like I said, it's everybody's choice, every parent's choice.
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Vinny
And I've heard good and bad arguments on why it's important. But but just know the risk is higher for children, who are playing in Pop Warner or, you know, youth football, even at a smaller, you know, smaller size, smaller speed hit, their brains are more susceptible to long term traumatic brain injury.
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Travis
Right. Huge point. Like even though the impacts might not be as severe, you might not hear it from the stands like you do in the high school games. The brains are developing.
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Vinny
Yeah. And you also got to think every, you know, softer.
00:19:02:07 - 00:19:03:08
Travis
It's a softer eggshell.
00:19:03:08 - 00:19:29:21
Vinny
Yeah. Softer eggshell. But also think about the life of a player. It's not just the football games. It's every practice. There's impacts. And every, every time your risk goes up, the more you're playing and taking hits, the higher your risks are over the course of your career. So for me, in my decision, I want I want to minimize the length of time and the amount of practices and the amount of games that my kid, is going to be experiencing the potential to get those impacts.
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Vinny
Yeah, that's just a decision I made. I think, my kids, I have three sons, two of them play flag football. Obviously, there's even risks in that. Sure. But they're, you know, they're pushing to get into tackle football. I'm my personal choice. I'm going to hold them off at least until middle school. I've heard arguments on the other side that it's good for young kids to learn how to tackle properly and how to take hits.
00:19:52:17 - 00:20:02:19
Vinny
I think that that makes sense at a at a lower speed. But for me, it's just the risks and the side effects that I've seen from guys who played even just in high school, you know, are so severe.
00:20:02:19 - 00:20:12:07
Travis
Because there's still a ton of skills you can teach them, you know, in elementary school that will translate to middle school or high school football. Exactly, exactly. Throwing, catching, running, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
00:20:12:08 - 00:20:18:21
Vinny
And I know you're in Toledo, and that's a big, you know, Aledo is a football powerhouse, and they start them young in the program and they want them I think.
00:20:18:21 - 00:20:19:12
Travis
Second grade.
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Vinny
Yeah I know yeah I know.
00:20:21:01 - 00:20:34:11
Travis
Just kind of well like yeah it's kind of funny seeing them in their pads because in there. But yeah I just remember seeing that like wow, this seems early I think when I was a kid was fourth grade is when it started. But now it just, you know. Yeah, I think.
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Vinny
They push them younger and younger for sure.
00:20:36:14 - 00:20:48:05
Travis
Going there. But but yeah, the cumulative effect of all of those impacts over the course of that career. Yeah. I saw a study from a couple years ago, just the average college football player. You know, any time you get hit in the head.
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Vinny
That I don't. What's one of those numbers?
00:20:49:23 - 00:21:02:13
Travis
415 times. Wow. Average college football player. Like sees the field I believe that it makes sense. Like you know it's it's not just the big tackles and the big sacks. It's like a lineman or defensive lineman. I mean, that's every single play.
00:21:02:14 - 00:21:03:15
Vinny
Yeah, every single play.
00:21:03:15 - 00:21:04:14
Travis
And just about.
00:21:04:14 - 00:21:13:14
Vinny
Yeah, multiple times. And you're getting even. It doesn't have to be a head to head impact. Even a you know, a hand to the face to the facemask can cause that rattling of the brain, that.
00:21:13:17 - 00:21:15:03
Travis
Were falling down, hitting the ground with the helmet.
00:21:15:03 - 00:21:39:14
Vinny
Exactly. And so there's it's multifaceted on what, you know, what rules they've tried to make to change things up. Texas, in addition to the concussion protocol, there's been regulations and rule changes about, you know, head to head. Yeah, impacts. There's also been changes to how often they can have practices in full pads. Yeah. And how far apart those practices need to be for like two days and things like that.
00:21:39:16 - 00:21:56:18
Vinny
Which I think have helped. And I think the goal there is reduce the number of times you could have those impacts, because you just never know which one's going to be the one. And the other problem is, like I said, you might not see the symptoms for five years. And then they suddenly and I heard this story over and over again from our clients.
00:21:56:20 - 00:22:12:07
Vinny
They had played football. They, you know, they had gotten out of the game. And then years later they realized, look, I'm having trouble. It starts off, I'm having trouble keeping a job because I can't keep showing up. And I'm having trouble. I'm sleeping in, then I'm getting depression. Then I'm having these fits of rage with a girlfriend or a wife.
00:22:12:10 - 00:22:37:13
Vinny
Yeah. And then they kind of put all those together. They don't know what it is. You neurologist. And they're saying, okay, look, there's evidence of brain injury here. So it's just, you know, all that to say, there's a lot of guys who are walking around with those symptoms and. And those issues don't feel like it's if you're one of those types of people don't feel like, you know, all hope is lost there are ways they've also improved in addition to, you know, improving football helmets and things.
00:22:37:13 - 00:22:38:12
Vinny
They've improved treatments.
00:22:38:12 - 00:22:56:09
Travis
They've improved the treatments. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was I was talking to a football player the other day actually, who had he wasn't feeling himself. And he went in and got a brain scan and they could like, see it on the map. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, this section, like, we need to work on this.
00:22:56:11 - 00:23:04:10
Travis
And they were able to put him through therapies to kind of rewire that part of the brain and improve it. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It is that that stuff wasn't available.
00:23:04:15 - 00:23:26:13
Vinny
No. Because they weren't thinking you know, they weren't thinking that this would be something that needs to be treated. They would treat it as if it was an Alzheimer's, like, oh, this is early onset Alzheimer's. Yeah. And they've done some in addition to, you know, like therapy, therapeutic type things, physical type therapy where it's it's brain exercises and, and speech therapy and things like that, which can really help.
00:23:26:15 - 00:23:49:02
Vinny
There's also, you know, there's medications that they've found have worked in certain types of Alzheimer's medications do actually work and kind of help stem the tide and, and put those symptoms off. So there's there's definitely help out there. If you're in Texas, I would say, UT Southwestern in Dallas has a, a traumatic brain injury program or that's what they focus on.
00:23:49:02 - 00:23:56:12
Vinny
And it's also cutting edge. I mean, it's it's right up there with Boston University. As far as their ability to diagnose brain injuries and then treat it.
00:23:56:12 - 00:24:00:17
Travis
So how can like is it how expensive is that to get in there?
00:24:00:20 - 00:24:22:07
Vinny
Well, they've got a program that they can if you'll participate in some of their studies, they'll actually pay for some of the treatment. So they're doing ongoing studies. All that's awesome. You don't have to do it that way. And your insurance will typically if you have insurance can cover it. Yeah. If you don't, you can participate in programs where you'll be one of the subjects who they're monitoring over a long period of time, and seeing what treatments work and what doesn't.
00:24:22:09 - 00:24:40:04
Vinny
So there's a lot of options, but I would definitely, you know, if you feel like you've got those signs or symptoms, talk to your doctor. If you got one. If not, go to the. It's the UT southwestern traumatic brain injury, group. I can't remember the last name of it, but it's on. It's online. It's easy to find and they'll get you in and talk to you.
00:24:40:05 - 00:24:52:02
Travis
Okay. And, now going back to the to the litigation a little bit, it sounds like you're wrapping up kind of this part of your career. I mean, you're not going to do, football litigation forever.
00:24:52:03 - 00:25:11:23
Vinny
No, I'm not I'm not going to do football litigation forever. And part of that is, you know, there's I think there was a time frame where you could make a claim like this that the NCAA did not inform me of these risks, or they didn't do enough to protect me from the risks. As you said in the last ten years or so, I think it's become more
00:25:12:01 - 00:25:13:06
Travis
Yeah, there's more education out there now.
00:25:13:07 - 00:25:43:13
Vinny
Well, well known and more education. And so there's an issue with like the statute of limitations and things like that, where it's just going to be hard for a player to say they either didn't know or weren't informed, but then, you know, waited ten years to make a claim. So at least for me, that's, you know, we're we're trying to, resolve and work out the NCAA cases that are still pending, you know, and if those will either get settled or will start having some trials, there's been a handful of trials, of actual cases going to trial.
00:25:43:19 - 00:26:06:02
Vinny
One of them was a former UT football player. His name was Platz. And he, you know, they got all the way through the expert witnesses testifying. But then the NCAA settled it right then and there. Okay. And then there's been another case. I forget this one. This was maybe two years ago where the NCAA won the case, saying, no, it wasn't our duty and responsibility.
00:26:06:04 - 00:26:09:12
Vinny
So it's kind of, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how the trials play out.
00:26:09:12 - 00:26:11:12
Travis
If these cases are tried individually.
00:26:11:12 - 00:26:29:05
Vinny
They're tried individually. Yeah. So that's in an MDL. That's a multidistrict litigation. They'll bring in all the cases together for all the pretrial stuff. Right. And then I know you know this, but and then they'll send each case back individually to get tried once it's once it's time to, to do so. So that's kind of where we're at.
00:26:29:05 - 00:26:36:20
Vinny
We've, we've gotten through all the discovery and, and all of the, pretrial, motions and things like that. So.
00:26:36:22 - 00:26:48:11
Travis
So, of the guys you've represented or the just the kind of the guys you know about, I mean, you talked about at the, the, the low end of the spectrum, it's I'm having trouble. I'm fatigued.
00:26:48:13 - 00:26:48:19
Vinny
Yeah.
00:26:48:19 - 00:26:59:09
Travis
Focusing on the trouble. Focus. Something's not right with me anymore. Now, that escalation, you kind of talked about some of it, but, like, how high does it go? I mean, have you had guys who have died?
00:26:59:09 - 00:27:18:09
Vinny
Yes. We've had guys who have died who have after or, you know, unfortunately, they still can't diagnose CTE. Which is the that is the kind of the highest level that's that chronic. We've got this brain injury that's not going to get better, can't diagnose it in living patients. They still have to take the brain and look at it.
00:27:18:11 - 00:27:46:00
Vinny
And so unfortunately we've had guys who have, you know, committed suicide. And then we've had their brains examined and yeah, they've got CTE. So that's, you know, CTE death cases. There's also on that on that high end is, you know, Alzheimer's and Lou Gehrig's disease. And that kind of just the, the thing that it's a young person who seems like if it's somebody who's 90 years old, like with Alzheimer's, like, can't remember anything, can barely speak, seen a lot.
00:27:46:01 - 00:27:51:07
Vinny
I'm kind of in the middle range. It's it's speech problems. Can't can't form words. Can't form sentences.
00:27:51:07 - 00:27:52:03
Travis
Well.
00:27:52:05 - 00:28:09:06
Vinny
Then depression is, you know, again on that depression is very serious because it can lead to suicide. But depression is a very common, side effect that we're seeing with these cases and players. And we got, you know, the ranges, like you said, from the from the lower end to the, to the worst possible outcome.
00:28:09:06 - 00:28:32:00
Travis
But so, yeah, I mean, this is important for people to understand, education is improve but have the outcomes improve, like with that kind of stuff. I mean, we're never going to take the risk completely out of the game of football. And so talk about the improvements in the helmets, whether that's carding caps or the helmet itself. Yeah.
00:28:32:03 - 00:28:41:02
Travis
And then whether or not we are seeing that that's actually reducing these cases because like you said, we don't see the results of stuff like this until like five years down the road.
00:28:41:04 - 00:29:05:12
Vinny
Well, at least from just so big picture, the what the NCAA has started doing is actually reporting the incidence of head injuries in, you know, each season. And with the rule changes, they have seen a decrease in reported head injuries. I haven't you know what the look big picture whether the long term impact of, you know lifelong traumatic brain injuries goes down.
00:29:05:12 - 00:29:28:14
Vinny
I hope it I hope it will. And I hope that the changes are going to, you know, result in that. So that's just on the rule change front on the helmet front there. Again no helmet will totally eliminate the risk of concussions. And there was actually some litigation a few years back when Reidel won. Concussions were first kind of come into the forefront of everybody's attention, like with the NFL, settlement and things like that.
00:29:28:16 - 00:29:48:13
Vinny
Right. Had a helmet that they put out that they that they claimed reduced, concussions by and I can't remember the percentage, but it was like it was over 50% like we got this over 50% reduction in concussions. It's a great new helmet. And the federal government actually had to come out and say after they after I got sued, you can't advertise.
00:29:48:13 - 00:29:59:09
Vinny
That's that's false advertising. You can't do that. They basically, you know, based that on a study at the University of Pittsburgh that right paid for and actually had, you know, employees do the study along with some other.
00:29:59:09 - 00:29:59:18
Travis
Sort of.
00:29:59:18 - 00:30:21:23
Vinny
People. So be careful when you see anybody claiming that this helmet will reduce concussions by some percentage or this is the, you know, the safest, newest helmet that, you know, you're not gonna have to worry about that the risk will always be there. But there are helmets that through, you know, testing and studies show they move the impact away from coming into the brain.
00:30:21:23 - 00:30:39:03
Vinny
It's supposed to go towards the back of the helmet and then kind of down towards the back rubber guard. So interesting kind of, you know, the mechanics of it, we talked about before is think of like an old car from the 1970s. The goal was, we're going to make this thing the heaviest, toughest, strongest thing that'll drive through a brick wall.
00:30:39:05 - 00:30:44:05
Vinny
Well, that's not actually a good design for a car, because the impact ends up going into the soft tissue in the.
00:30:44:05 - 00:30:46:08
Travis
Body really get absorbed in the spine of your.
00:30:46:08 - 00:31:02:08
Vinny
Exactly. So they made changes where vehicles now take impact, it may result in the bumper crumpling or, you know, taking the impact and moving it away from the person. And that's sort of the goal with the new helmet designs, flexibility in the helmet flex on that top cap.
00:31:02:10 - 00:31:08:01
Travis
So we can't say for sure that they're safer. It just seems that they are because that makes sense. Yeah.
00:31:08:01 - 00:31:39:17
Vinny
That's that's where we're that's where the technology is right now. And there is a there's an organization. It's called knock see. It's in Oxford on the back of every football helmet packaging in America. You'll get a knock see rating on what the how much in G-Force is it able to displace. And so if you're out looking for a helmet and I should bring this point up to you have the right as a parent to get your kid whatever helmet you want, as long as it's meets the minimum safety standards.
00:31:39:17 - 00:31:56:01
Vinny
And that's like NCAA approved, which even though it's high school. And if the NCAA says this helmet meets our minimum requirements, you can use it in high school in Texas, even if the team has a different helmet. And they say, these are our, you know, issued helmets, you have the right as a parent to buy your own helmet.
00:31:56:03 - 00:32:01:21
Vinny
There's a way to get a stipend for the value of the helmet, that the school is providing.
00:32:01:23 - 00:32:13:02
Travis
But so, so, okay, so the Cougars team issued high school helmet. Everybody gets a helmet. And what's, like a basic helmet? Cost, like 100 bucks, 200 bucks.
00:32:13:02 - 00:32:15:15
Vinny
200 bucks is about a basic kind of 200.
00:32:15:15 - 00:32:32:13
Travis
Bucks. So Johnny brings on his helmet, and you, as a parent, say, I want to see if there's a nicer helmet out there. Yeah, you go look it up. And as long as it's NCAA approved, you can go buy that helmet, turn in the old helmet and get a stipend. So get a check for 200 bucks, I guess in that scenario.
00:32:32:13 - 00:32:54:03
Vinny
Correct. And then they have school. Well, I can't remember whether the school pays to repaint it or you do, but you'll get it matching the, you know, the school colors and all that kind of stuff. But that's a rights you have and I think you should do that. Look at what helmet gets issued. There's rules about, you know, now, just so you know, one of the rule changes ten years ago that Texas made was helmets can't be more than 16 years old.
00:32:54:03 - 00:32:57:21
Vinny
So that just goes to show you, these are helmets that they'd been using for at least 16 years.
00:32:58:03 - 00:32:58:09
Travis
When.
00:32:58:09 - 00:33:16:23
Vinny
They were just repainting and repurposing. Now it's ten years old and they've got a re, you know, and they've got to resurface them and rework them, I think every two years. But you may not be getting the highest quality helmet that's the school issued, you know, helmet. So take a look. And then I would go, you can go, you can look online.
00:33:17:04 - 00:33:34:16
Vinny
Academy actually has a pretty good selection of football helmets at the beginning of football season. Look at those and oxy ratings. Do some research on what what helmets are the best right. L has has a helmet that's supposed to be pretty good. According to Knox. Now, that came out, I think two years ago. It's a it's like a flex flex two or something like that.
00:33:34:20 - 00:33:52:10
Vinny
But there's other brands too. There's there's now competition, which I think is, is partially the result of litigation and people knowing more about it. New companies have come out or companies that didn't used to make football helmets have come out with kind of interesting designs on ways to to help the help the players safety and improve those things.
00:33:52:10 - 00:33:53:21
Vinny
So take a look at those things.
00:33:53:21 - 00:33:59:06
Travis
So when the boys play football, I assume you're going to take that stipend and go, good. Yeah. That's something you.
00:33:59:06 - 00:34:15:06
Vinny
Can definitely now hopefully the helmets will keep on improving. If I was going to go buy one today, would there's a zenith helmet that based on the studies that they did a lot of work on, not just the outer shell but the inner, like the soft part on the inside, they did things that again, move the impact away.
00:34:15:06 - 00:34:22:06
Vinny
And it's a better it's supposed to be a better foam to kind of absorb that. It's supposed to be more like soft tissue. That's going to be the first to absorb the impact before your brain.
00:34:22:08 - 00:34:41:07
Travis
It's interesting that they can I understand that concept. But like when a car gets smashed, the bumper cave is in like, that's a good thing, like we talked about. So it doesn't transfer that energy to the occupants. But you got to go take the bumper back to the shop and get it fixed. Exactly. So what happens with when those helmets get hit like so they just kind of reform and take their supposedly.
00:34:41:13 - 00:34:56:19
Vinny
Yeah, it's supposed to like on the one like on that. Right. El flex that's probably the most popular helmet right now in college that you'll see on the crown of the helmet. It will move up and down like it'll take the impact and like move down, but then go back to its original shape. That's you know, that's the problem though.
00:34:56:19 - 00:35:11:08
Vinny
You're right. You can't you can't go back and replace the bumper. You can't replace the helmet. In the middle of the game. Some of those zenith helmets have the foam padding inside. It'll you can replace that really quickly. And so like if you get a bad impact and there's damage to it.
00:35:11:08 - 00:35:11:16
Travis
Oh that's.
00:35:11:16 - 00:35:23:06
Vinny
Interesting. You can take out that inner shell and switch it out which is interesting. It's time consuming and it's a more expensive helmet. But I mean they're ranging anywhere from 200 to $800 from what I've seen, oh.
00:35:23:06 - 00:35:24:00
Travis
$800.
00:35:24:04 - 00:35:33:12
Vinny
800 bucks for kind of the, the top end and you know, but but do your research in every literally every season they're coming out with new helmets. Each of these companies is.
00:35:33:12 - 00:35:45:06
Travis
Yeah. And the stuff should get cheaper and cheaper, hopefully, just like any other technology. And, you know, you could see a world in the future where in the concussion protocol that they swap out the interior of the helmets maybe.
00:35:45:06 - 00:36:03:19
Vinny
Yeah, exactly. I think that would and I think with, you know, it's kind of a guinea pig system right now where you're testing out what is the best helmet. I think the best helmets will kind of emerge and will become more commonplace. And what people like to use and what they can use. So yeah, it's it's interesting to see it's kind of fascinating to see how fast the technology has changed on the helmets, though.
00:36:03:19 - 00:36:25:09
Vinny
Yeah. And the alternative designs that they look at. I know you mentioned Guardian caps and that's the, you know, that's the outer. You can put that on any helmet, but it's an outer shell that you actually physically put on the original. Those originally came out of, like the 1970s. And the helmet makers and the NFL actually banned them.
00:36:25:09 - 00:36:36:01
Vinny
So now we're not going to that can't do this, you know, with pressure. So I think the I think the jury's still out on on the Guardian caps. I haven't seen a lot of great studies shown that those.
00:36:36:04 - 00:36:37:19
Travis
I talked to the Guardian cap guy this morning.
00:36:37:20 - 00:36:39:08
Vinny
Did you really. Well what's his word.
00:36:39:08 - 00:36:40:09
Travis
They love them.
00:36:40:11 - 00:36:41:14
Vinny
Well, shocking. Shocking.
00:36:41:18 - 00:36:56:11
Travis
No, it was a sales guy because I called him and I'm like, hey, if I, were thinking about sponsoring a team and getting them all going, caps, and but I was like, yeah, I need to see the science first. I need to know that they help. Yeah, I'm not going to just do it just to do it.
00:36:56:11 - 00:37:01:06
Travis
Right. And so so you're saying you haven't seen convincing science on it?
00:37:01:06 - 00:37:19:15
Vinny
I have not. And maybe he's got some new study that hopefully Guardian Cap Inc didn't pay for. And it's an actual independent study. But but I don't know I mean I just haven't the studies that I did see from two years ago, I didn't see a big improvement on that G-Force rating. So. Right. Because I think the problem, I mean, I'm.
00:37:19:18 - 00:37:21:08
Travis
Assuming the NFL is now allowing.
00:37:21:08 - 00:37:26:04
Vinny
Him. They allow him. Yeah. It's your choice if you want to. If you want to wear them, you can. But I've seen a few guys wear them.
00:37:26:06 - 00:37:32:00
Travis
Your suspicion is that that's just the NFL saying like, yeah, like you can do it fine. Yeah. We're not gonna tell you what to do.
00:37:32:00 - 00:37:46:13
Vinny
I think there has been a shift a little bit on the just on the liability front where it's like, we'll let you do whatever you want, but it's on you, which is partially why now, like in Texas, they make you go to your doctor and get a sign off from your doctor who says you're allowed to come back and play.
00:37:46:13 - 00:37:48:11
Vinny
Like we're not going to be the ones to say when you're.
00:37:48:15 - 00:37:49:11
Travis
Not going back to school.
00:37:49:11 - 00:38:14:06
Vinny
Yeah, you make the decision and we'll and we'll abide by it. And then a part of that form actually just like, yeah, that makes sense. But there's a waiver on that form that says you hereby, you know, release all liability. And you understand that under the education code, you can't sue us once you submit this. So that's, you know, it's it's sort of a two edged sword, but but at least that's, you know, at least it's something you will get a true neutral hopefully a neutral doctor who can make the right decision.
00:38:14:08 - 00:38:37:01
Vinny
Yeah. But that's just kind of going back to what we're talking about, being advocate for your kids. If you're a doctor, be an advocate for the player. Obviously the sport comes second to long term health and don't get too wrapped up in it. And coaches too, I think I think coach coaching attitude has improved. And but if you're a coach or if you're an assistant coach, be on the lookout for any signs and symptoms and help the kids out.
00:38:37:01 - 00:38:46:11
Vinny
I know, I know, the coaches have, you know, good intentions, but, don't don't let the the thrill of the game override that that role as a guardian for the players.
00:38:46:13 - 00:38:59:05
Travis
Yeah. I mean, especially like coaches who have to recruit like just to be able to go into people's living rooms and say like, look, I'm going to take care of your kid the best of my ability. Yeah. You know, I'm not going to put him in if I suspect that not just concussions, but just just taking a beating to the head.
00:38:59:06 - 00:39:01:00
Travis
Yeah.
00:39:01:02 - 00:39:17:14
Vinny
And I think as parents, you should. If you got a kid who's, you know, who's going to be recruited and talked to you should that should be something that you talk to the coach about. What is the concussion protocol at your school? Who is on your staff? Who's going to be on the sideline? Do you have a dedicated, you know, trainer who's doing this or is that a physician?
00:39:17:17 - 00:39:21:21
Travis
Yeah. Do you all comply with just the minimum standards or have you all gone above and beyond? Exactly.
00:39:22:00 - 00:39:38:19
Vinny
Yeah. And I think it's small school districts that can be difficult because, you know, they've got to come up with ways to come up with, concussion committee who meets all the state law requirements, but who's also going to be dedicated to just watching on the sidelines. They've got to have a dedicated person who's looking for those symptoms.
00:39:38:19 - 00:39:55:20
Vinny
So, it can be a parent, like if you're a parent who's interested in doing that, talk to your it's the superintendent who sets that committee. Talk to your superintendent and ask who who's on the committee, who's on the sideline. You know, do you want to volunteer as a as a parent, you know, overseer, helping out with those things?
00:39:55:20 - 00:39:56:13
Vinny
Because I think that would be.
00:39:56:13 - 00:39:58:03
Travis
Helpful if it had to be a physician.
00:39:58:05 - 00:40:04:16
Vinny
The physician does not. So if a physician has to be on the, on the council, right. But it doesn't have to be a physician on the sideline.
00:40:04:16 - 00:40:05:08
Travis
Got it.
00:40:05:08 - 00:40:10:16
Vinny
So it's it's kind of that's evolving. But that's just I think the reality of are these schools, it.
00:40:10:16 - 00:40:13:13
Travis
Has to be a neutral parent. They can't be can't be the star quarterback.
00:40:13:13 - 00:40:17:02
Vinny
Come back in. Yeah. Come back. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
00:40:17:04 - 00:40:25:01
Travis
Okay. Kickoffs I'm talking about football today. We talked about so we the changes we made we've got better helmets. We think.
00:40:25:03 - 00:40:26:01
Vinny
Yep.
00:40:26:03 - 00:40:33:06
Travis
Some guys regarding caps, we're not sure if that's helping or not. We see targeting called most times unless it's the Texas Longhorns.
00:40:33:09 - 00:40:35:01
Vinny
That's right.
00:40:35:02 - 00:40:41:13
Travis
We see kickoffs are completely different. Yeah, because that's obviously an area where some of the biggest impacts used to be.
00:40:41:15 - 00:40:56:21
Vinny
Yeah, sprinting, sprinting down the field 80 yards and waiting for some guy who's standing there still. I think the plan was, if we can reduce, reduce the amount of distance that they're traveling and then also incentivize the kickers to because they move the ball up a little bit. So the kicker it's easier to kick, you know.
00:40:56:21 - 00:40:57:18
Travis
Kick it almost always a.
00:40:57:18 - 00:41:18:19
Vinny
Touchback. Yeah. And you can now I think a fair catch anywhere within. Yeah I think behind the 25 you can still get it at the 25. Yep. And I'm think there's been a few others. And those were not popular rule changes. People were mad about those right. But according to the NFL they did a study to on way less injuries, not even just brain injuries with far less injuries from kickoffs as a result of those rule changes.
00:41:18:19 - 00:41:24:07
Travis
Because they didn't start they they tested that somewhere. Yeah. And I have been in football or XFL or something.
00:41:24:08 - 00:41:26:21
Vinny
If whatever the AFL thing was that.
00:41:27:03 - 00:41:32:06
Travis
Tested that somewhere else and, and they, it was working so they brought it great. Yeah. I mean it seems like it's working great.
00:41:32:08 - 00:41:51:17
Vinny
Yeah. And I think they've also tried to, you know, the rules about blows to the head, especially the quarterbacks. I think they should make that for all the players where you know, even hitting on the head or any kind of targeting obviously. But I think protecting players heads has got to be the key as far as any kind of impact, a knee, Anita, the head can cause a concussion.
00:41:51:19 - 00:42:08:19
Vinny
So I'd like to see more of those types of rules where, you know, players are learning to avoid hitting certain areas. They can learn that. And the same with tackling. I've heard that they've really changed. You know, a form tackle has changed the way they coach. That used to be, you know, put your head down, put your head into.
00:42:08:21 - 00:42:29:03
Vinny
Yep, a guy's chest and do those things. But that causes such impact on the head. So guys are tackling with their shoulders which you know used to be oh that's a shoulder tackle. That's no good. But right. Even at the younger age. So if you got a kid with, if you got a younger kid who's just getting into football, watch and see and talk to the coach about what is his form tackle like, what's his method for teaching for him?
00:42:29:03 - 00:42:43:16
Vinny
Tackle. Because that has changed and it's supposed to be changing all the way up. You know, high school and college and the NFL. To comply with the rules they need to make that change. But we all learned it a different way. So just make sure you got some dad out there coaching like, you know, I'm sure you coach kids sports.
00:42:43:20 - 00:42:50:00
Vinny
You know, sometimes they're not always, most up to speed on on proper tackling techniques.
00:42:50:02 - 00:43:09:01
Travis
That's good advice, Vinny. So we talked about advices, advice for parents. Yeah. Helmet selection. Right to intervene tackling, ask questions about concussion protocols. And then think about when to start. Obviously tackle football.
00:43:09:03 - 00:43:36:01
Vinny
Yeah exactly. And I think for coaches you know look at your it's not just high school coaches I know they'll be looking at the rules but if you're coaching at a younger age there's all kinds of good information on the U-i-l website, which is the you know, that they govern, Texas high school football, but they've got really good like form tackle guidelines and they've got model concussion protocols that you can follow as you can download.
00:43:36:03 - 00:43:55:09
Vinny
There's videos on there about the risks of concussions that you can give to the parents. I would encourage doing all those things at the beginning of the football season. Send those things out to your parents. Let them see. Let them talk to their kids about it. Because knowing the signs of a concussion, a lot of times only the player knows when he's, you know, suffering some symptom.
00:43:55:09 - 00:44:11:19
Vinny
And he may just think it's part of, you know, part of the game. But learning about dizziness, loss of focus, you know, losing ability to stand straight, tingling and weird places after you've, you know, suffered a head injury. Very important for the kids to know. So that way they can they.
00:44:11:19 - 00:44:12:05
Travis
Can report.
00:44:12:05 - 00:44:14:18
Vinny
It. Yeah, they can report it. And and to not be afraid to report.
00:44:14:18 - 00:44:16:04
Travis
It emboldened them to report that.
00:44:16:04 - 00:44:16:10
Vinny
Yeah.
00:44:16:10 - 00:44:18:02
Travis
Exact to protect their long term health.
00:44:18:02 - 00:44:24:02
Vinny
So that's one that's been one good kind of side effect of everyone learning more about concussions. There's there are good resources that are out there.
00:44:24:03 - 00:44:31:09
Travis
What about you know, for the parents who their kids are done playing football and they're starting to have these symptoms and they're getting concerned.
00:44:31:12 - 00:44:51:19
Vinny
Yeah, I would I would go to your first go to your primary care doctor if you have one. And that way you can kind of document it and he can get you a referral. It's much faster to get, get into a neuro, you know, if you need to go see a neurologist. It's my experience has been it's so much faster if you can get a referral from a treating physician who's the family doctor?
00:44:51:21 - 00:45:11:10
Vinny
And I know, like, for example, I know the doctor in Aledo, doctor Kretschmer, he knows the signs and symptoms, and he's he's sent people to neurologists. And so it's getting to be, you know, these doctors know more and more about what to look for. But if you're seeing those signs and symptoms, go to your, go to your primary care physician or go to an urgent care place.
00:45:11:10 - 00:45:33:08
Vinny
If you don't have a normal doctor, that would be my first step. There's also things you can do, yourself if, you know, if you got downtime and you're not sure there's things called executive functioning tests and that's, nobody likes taking tests, but it's just a simple you fill out, it's free, it's online, you fill out certain bubbles about how you make decisions, and then it'll give you a score.
00:45:33:09 - 00:45:55:08
Vinny
And that's usually been one of the first. When we're screening clients, we'll have them take an executive functioning test, because executive functioning is decision making, you know, making quick decisions. How you how you come to a decision, how you form different ideas, a loss of executive functioning is really an early sign of long term traumatic brain injury.
00:45:55:09 - 00:46:16:01
Vinny
Because it gets worse from there. And it's it's and that's one of the reasons we see guys who are can't keep a job or can't, you know, don't understand why they have such bad impulse control. It's usually a loss of executive functioning. So you can take an executive functioning test online, see what the score is, and it'll tell you here's what midrange is, here's what normal is, here's what low end is.
00:46:16:03 - 00:46:41:14
Vinny
And if you've got that, you can again take that to a to a doctor or to a neurologist. But talking about it is key. And depression and domestic violence are two of the most common things that we see. If you see just rage and anger problems directed at, at a loved one spouse or girlfriend, that can be a sign of a, of a long term issue that you can get treated and it's not the sooner you get in the better.
00:46:41:14 - 00:46:53:14
Vinny
Because as you said, you've got guys who you know who you can do speech therapy, physical therapy that actually do help with the symptoms. And then if they need to escalate it up from there to, to medicines, there's, there's that option too.
00:46:53:14 - 00:46:54:17
Travis
But the sooner the better.
00:46:54:17 - 00:47:14:21
Vinny
Yeah. And you know what I've seen just because we represented guys and I'm sure women deal with this too. But the guys are hesitant to talk about depression. They're hesitant to talk about totally, anger issues. So, you know, if you're if you got a loved one who's who's shown those signs, just talk to them. And if you're a person who suffered it, talk to somebody.
00:47:14:23 - 00:47:20:09
Vinny
Because that's that's the first step to getting help rather than just letting it fester and get worse and worse.
00:47:20:11 - 00:47:40:20
Travis
Yeah. Great advice. What I was researching for today, I was kind of looking back at some of the stories from this past football season. It seems like every year. I mean, I don't know the for a fact, but it seems like every football season. But times by the time it ends, there's a handful of players around the country who die.
00:47:40:23 - 00:48:01:13
Travis
Yeah. Not just from like, long term issues like you're talking about, but either on the field or shortly thereafter from these, these head injuries. Yeah. That's just a sad reality of of the game, the sport, of of a lot of different sports. I mean, that that's probably something that we're never going to be able to completely eliminate, unfortunately.
00:48:01:14 - 00:48:22:20
Vinny
I think that's right. I think there's always going to be a risk, especially in football, because of the amount of padding everybody's wearing and the speed and players are getting bigger and stronger. So I think I mentioned, you know, when I was younger, high school football was you just sign up, you're on the team. I've watched some of these state championship games and they look like I mean, they look like college players.
00:48:22:23 - 00:48:48:17
Vinny
They're they're fast and strong. The game has sped up, and I do think there's always going to be the risk of, you know, a catastrophic brain injury, which is that's just death. I mean, that's death either at the time of impact or shortly thereafter, brain bleeds happen. Aneurysms happen. And so, yeah, there's there's always unfortunately. And that's set aside like broken necks and things like that that also happen in football.
00:48:48:18 - 00:49:04:02
Vinny
There's, there's it's sad, but it's going to happen. Heat related deaths. So football is a very risky sport. Finding ways to reduce the risk are great, but you'll never totally eliminate it. So that's just what we all got to wrestle with on, you know, deciding the.
00:49:04:05 - 00:49:05:00
Travis
Life as a parent.
00:49:05:01 - 00:49:06:13
Vinny
Yeah, exactly. Life as a parent.
00:49:06:15 - 00:49:21:18
Travis
Do we ride bikes? Do we go swimming? Do we go skiing? Do we play football? I mean, it's just these are individual choices, but our job is just to get out the information that we've learned and educate and empower people to make informed decisions. Yeah. It's not always up to your children, right? Yeah.
00:49:21:20 - 00:49:23:15
Vinny
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. They don't always get to decide because.
00:49:23:16 - 00:49:30:07
Travis
There is some pressure from the kids. Like, yeah, obviously. I mean it's it starts pretty early. Yeah. It's they get to third or fourth grade. It's like I want to play tackle football.
00:49:30:08 - 00:49:53:21
Vinny
Yeah, exactly. And their friends are all playing tackle. And you know, it's football is such a important part of, you know, all of our entertainment lives. We're watching football, watching college playoffs, watching, you know, NFL games. Maybe not. Maybe not. The Cowboys this year so much. But watching, you know, and it just gets ingrained. I don't know if you've ever seen, you ever seen the movie interstellar?
00:49:53:23 - 00:49:58:21
Vinny
No. It's got Matthew McConaughey in it. And there's a scene where he's like looking through time. And his kids.
00:49:58:22 - 00:49:59:17
Travis
Love Matthew McConaughey.
00:49:59:17 - 00:50:19:23
Vinny
Okay, well, another UT guy, he's looking through the he's like, yelling at his kid, trying to he's gone back in time and he's starting to say, oh no, don't do don't do what you're about to do. But I saw a meme where it was like a guy like that trying to yell at his kid not to become obsessed with whatever NFL team you're obsessed with, because that's what his his future is going to be watching the Cowboys do terrible for the next, you know, 30 years or whatever it is.
00:50:19:23 - 00:50:29:21
Vinny
So that's just, football is such a part of American life, Texas life. And yeah, the kids have a lot of pressure to play and and start playing tackle.
00:50:30:02 - 00:50:35:09
Travis
You know my vices play lacrosse okay first, then you can look at football. Yeah.
00:50:35:09 - 00:50:37:23
Vinny
Not everybody's a fancy private school guy like yourself.
00:50:37:23 - 00:50:40:17
Travis
The is available to play.
00:50:40:19 - 00:50:43:04
Vinny
I'm sure that does look like a cool sport. I've never, never played.
00:50:43:04 - 00:50:52:10
Travis
It was great hand-eye coordination. Some contact. Not. Not so much. Head injuries. Yeah. Head contact, but a lot of bumping shoulders and elbows. Speed, hand-eye. It's got it.
00:50:52:10 - 00:51:02:08
Vinny
All. Yeah, I like that. I actually played hockey for the TCU Horned Frogs before the team disbanded. It was a short lived, short lived thing, but yeah, hockey's another great sport.
00:51:02:13 - 00:51:05:10
Travis
You played ice hockey for TCU? I did, yeah. Fun fact.
00:51:05:10 - 00:51:05:18
Vinny
Yeah.
00:51:05:18 - 00:51:09:06
Travis
Very first guy from Aledo to ever play ice hockey from teeth for sure.
00:51:09:06 - 00:51:18:22
Vinny
That's right. I think that's probably right. Probably first and only because it didn't it didn't last very long, but it wasn't and there was no there was no name, image and likeness, rights or anything like that back then. So.
00:51:18:22 - 00:51:19:20
Travis
So you had to go be a lawyer?
00:51:19:23 - 00:51:36:06
Vinny
Yeah. I think that's actually going to be helpful. That's another side effect. People don't like this name, image and likeness payments that the players are getting, but it's allowing the players to kind of get advocates similar to what NFL. You still can't have an agent officially.
00:51:36:08 - 00:51:37:06
Travis
That's so weird to me.
00:51:37:06 - 00:51:38:00
Vinny
Yeah, but.
00:51:38:04 - 00:51:43:14
Travis
You can get offered $6 million, but you don't have an agent. Yeah. Isn't Carson back an offer? 6 million to play for Miami?
00:51:43:14 - 00:51:45:04
Vinny
I'd. I wouldn't surprise me at all.
00:51:45:04 - 00:51:47:15
Travis
Do they have collective bargaining power? No, no.
00:51:47:16 - 00:51:55:03
Vinny
No collective bargaining power. They've lost. And there's been there's been lawsuits where they tried to get that. Now, this was before the name, image and likeness things came out.
00:51:55:03 - 00:51:57:00
Travis
So that they should retry that.
00:51:57:00 - 00:52:10:08
Vinny
There's a U.S. Supreme Court case, actually, that said, don't have collective bargaining rights, and the NCAA is not a monopoly. So they've lost all the way up to the US Supreme Court. The players have lost, I should say NCAA was successful on that.
00:52:10:10 - 00:52:15:05
Travis
Do you think if they got collective bargaining power now that would help with player safety?
00:52:15:07 - 00:52:43:19
Vinny
Yeah, absolutely. I think that because the NFL players union is a great example of that. And again, I'm a I won't get political but I'm not a big I'm a pretty conservative guy. But the NFL players union has implemented all kinds of protections for their players that have trickled down to the NCAA. But if the NCAA players could get collective bargaining, that would be a huge voice for their, you know, for their rights in player safety, rule changes and, and that sort of and equipment.
00:52:43:21 - 00:52:46:17
Vinny
So I think, I think it would be very helpful for them to get that.
00:52:46:17 - 00:52:48:12
Travis
Yeah. I mean, there's all sorts of arguments.
00:52:48:17 - 00:53:03:21
Vinny
I think it would I think it would take an act of Congress, though, to, to do that because because of that supreme Court decision, I don't know that the name, image and likeness change will be enough to, to change that rule. But yeah, there's a pretty, pretty strong case law. Not allowing that.
00:53:03:22 - 00:53:09:04
Travis
And at least. Are we getting into Lori now? Is it still still relevant to all the parents out there?
00:53:09:04 - 00:53:23:16
Vinny
Collective bargaining? Mdlz. Yeah. But yeah, there's just a lot to think about with all that. It's been it's been fascinating to to work with guys, met some really great guys who are suffering from the injuries and I've seen improvements with, with treatment. So that's that's been good for us to see.
00:53:23:21 - 00:53:26:18
Travis
Well I'm sure you're helping. You're being there for those guys has helped a ton. Yeah.
00:53:26:18 - 00:53:27:09
Vinny
It's been it's been.
00:53:27:09 - 00:53:43:03
Travis
Good for me. It's your help. I mean obviously not just your work, but your work is a big part of it. And you get the biggest group of guys. It's made changes across football in general. So, you know, I tell this to good lawyers, like you'll never know how many lives you save or how many injuries you prevented by doing the work you do.
00:53:43:03 - 00:53:51:16
Travis
But you know, Vinnie, I can honestly say like buy the work you and your team have done. You're not just help your clients, but you've helped other players out there that you'll never meet.
00:53:51:17 - 00:53:54:02
Vinny
Yeah. That's awesome. That's good to think about. Yeah. That's it's and.
00:53:54:03 - 00:53:55:16
Travis
It's it's a good legacy to to leave.
00:53:55:16 - 00:54:07:02
Vinny
Yeah. Thanks man I appreciate that's very, very kind. And if you're thinking if you're a parent thinking about football and. Well, I have played football. What I have my kid play football. Same with being a lawyer. Would you have your kid be a lawyer? Yeah. You.
00:54:07:07 - 00:54:08:06
Travis
That's a separate episode. That's a.
00:54:08:06 - 00:54:13:18
Vinny
Separate whole. Should you send your kid into the law field? There's a lot of good work that you can do as a as a lawyer, so I appreciate you saying that.
00:54:13:21 - 00:54:17:21
Travis
Yeah. No doubt. Anything else we tackle?
00:54:18:03 - 00:54:29:00
Vinny
I think we're. I think we're good. Appreciate the time. And I'll look forward to watching all the other podcasts you got coming up on. This is a fascinating, fascinating topics. And a lot of different people have come together.
00:54:29:00 - 00:54:32:06
Travis
So it's been fun. We've had good guests, like you and Lisa.
00:54:32:06 - 00:54:40:09
Annalise
Everything else. Yeah. Questions of the second injury make it more risky. And more likely. Is that, like the same game? The next play could be the next week.
00:54:40:11 - 00:54:55:20
Vinny
The the biggest risk. So the longer the time you can wait, the better. The biggest risk is like immediately afterwards. And so at first the rule was if you had a concussion, you had to stay out for that half. But then they were finding guys who were dropping dead in the second half with a with a minor hit.
00:54:55:22 - 00:55:17:05
Vinny
It's, it's it's called second concussion syndrome. And it's, it's been studied pretty in depth. That's why now at least in high school, if there's a concussion, the player has to come out. They'll take his helmet from him. He has to come out of the game, and he can't go back in without a physician examining him after the, you know, time helps, according to the studies.
00:55:17:07 - 00:55:20:01
Vinny
So, yeah, it's definitely a kind of a time time sensitive issue.
00:55:20:01 - 00:55:21:11
Annalise
But it is a compounding thing, too.
00:55:21:13 - 00:55:23:17
Vinny
Yes. It's a. Yep. Exactly.
00:55:23:19 - 00:55:38:17
Travis
So yeah, if you can hear she don't have a mic, she's gonna have a mic next time. At least from the back row. How how long does a player need to come out before that second. Concussion is a big problem. And, Yeah, it seems like the as long as possible for at least for the rest of the game.
00:55:38:17 - 00:55:52:09
Vinny
Yeah. For certain. Yeah, definitely for the rest of the game. And that's oftentimes the biggest you know, fight or temptation is get the guy back in, you know too soon. Coaches parents you know everybody else pull the guy out of the game. Don't don't let him go back.
00:55:52:09 - 00:56:04:05
Travis
So if they it's if a kid goes to the sideline and then they clear him and they go back in and then he gets hurt bad, what's the liability situation?
00:56:04:07 - 00:56:23:22
Vinny
A good question have not, you know, for, for a if it's gross negligence by the coach. Like if it's something that's not just negligence but gross negligence should have known, you know, did know or should have known and was reckless. The the coach would be individually liable if it's gross negligence. Under the statute. I haven't seen it.
00:56:23:22 - 00:56:43:18
Vinny
I haven't seen a case testing under this new kind of protocol over, you know, having to get the physician and all that stuff. I haven't seen a case that's tested sovereign immunity, which is public schools. You generally don't get to sue them, unless the legislature puts forth in, you know, in the in the legislature, in the law what you can sue them for.
00:56:43:23 - 00:57:03:08
Vinny
So I know that gross negligence, you can sue him. I'm not sure. I haven't really seen it. Just the coach. They're not the school, just the coach, the whoever the person was that cleared him. So even the trainer or, you know, whoever was on the sideline, the physician, that person, if they commit gross negligence and a player gets injured as a result of that, you can sue them individually.
00:57:03:10 - 00:57:13:11
Vinny
Well, but that's as far as I know. I think that's the I think that's the test. But I haven't really studied or seen a good test case on this one. Yeah. Yes, ma'am.
00:57:13:13 - 00:57:18:05
Travis
If you're going to, if you ask one more question, you you have to come sit out on the set and have a microphone.
00:57:18:07 - 00:57:31:01
Annalise
This is all related to that, but so this committee you talked about with the parents, I mean, surely there's because of the bias, like, is there a protocol on who you can choose and then is obviously going to get sued their parent? If I'm like, I'm going to help out the team, but.
00:57:31:01 - 00:57:34:20
Travis
Then, yeah, is there is there a risk of getting sued if you volunteer to be on these committees?
00:57:34:21 - 00:57:42:04
Annalise
Yeah. Protocols. Does this also apply to private schools? Because I worked for a private school and I feel like maybe I was unaware, but I don't know that any of that was.
00:57:42:04 - 00:58:00:15
Vinny
I know the so so the question is, can you get sued if you're helping out on the concussion committee that every public school has to have? And then second, do private schools have to have those? So the answer is how they decide who goes on the committee is has to meet the statutory requirements. But it's ultimately decided by the school superintendent.
00:58:00:15 - 00:58:22:15
Vinny
So it's on him. And he's got very broad immunity for him and his committee. So I haven't again, I haven't seen a test case on it since the law came out. I would think the answer is you would not be you could not be held personally liable for participating in the concussion, protocol committee as long as you follow the state laws, you're going to be immune.
00:58:22:15 - 00:58:48:14
Vinny
The same as a school would be immune. As far as private schools go, the law does not apply to private schools. They're regulated through a different you know, that especially in Texas, very hands off of the private schools. So Tapps, which is the Texas Association of Private Schools that regulates most of the most of the big private schools that are big enough to have a football team, and they've got a very strong concussion protocol.
00:58:48:14 - 00:59:12:00
Vinny
They try and model off the u-i-l. In fact, a lot of times they'll say we follow all u-i-l guidelines for, player safety, for the rules and for other things. I think there's a difference. I think Six-Man football has some carve out. It's pretty unusual. If you're if you're in a town that has six man football and you're watching this podcast and I congratulate you, but it's pretty small.
00:59:12:04 - 00:59:18:22
Vinny
They've got a different set of rules. I'm not sure what all the parameters are, but it's the same basic, same basic kind of set up.
00:59:19:00 - 00:59:20:11
Travis
This podcast was a very far reach.
00:59:20:17 - 00:59:22:11
Vinny
Okay, I like that.
00:59:22:13 - 00:59:42:15
Travis
Well, thanks, buddy. Unless you have anything else. No. I'll let you get back to work. Each paying gig. But thanks for coming on. Thanks for joining us for another episode, and we will see you all next time. Hey there listeners. Hope today's episode has been enlightening and inspiring. As we dive into these important conversations about safety community, I'm reminded of why I became a personal injury lawyer in the first place.
00:59:42:16 - 01:00:01:04
Travis
Every day I see people whose lives have been turned upside down because of some accident in one shape or form or another. It's a confusing, overwhelming time and it can feel impossible to know where to turn. If you or someone you love have been an accident and you need honest guidance. Is it Patterson? Personal injury icon. Schedule a free consultation with our team.
01:00:01:06 - 01:00:19:10
Travis
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01:00:19:12 - 01:00:24:06
Travis
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